The Road to Tyranny in Colombia- A Third Term in Office

romy says on Aug 19, 2008, 08:55:

"Rather than seeking truth and facilitating justice the Uribe administration and its ideological cohorts have clearly become preoccupied with silencing systemic corruption by targeting those who have spoken out or raised a spotlight on officials who have facilitated the death and disappearances of the country’s citizens. Uribe has shown his true colours as a leader within a regime that seeks to dispel democratic stability and integrity for the continuity of power and dominance. While not the only actor within the play of Colombian authoritarianism, Uribe, if ‘re-elected’ a second time, will most assuredly take Colombia down a road far from the rule of law but rather a tyranny secured by despotism."

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Mr. Hollywood says on Aug 19, 2008, 11:13:

Romy, it all sounds great to say things like "Uribe has shown his true colours as a leader within a regime that seeks to dispel democratic stability and integrity for the continuity of power and dominance" but how about some actual examples of him being authoritarian or autocratic? What civil rights laws has he revoked? What opposition has he imprisoned? What groups has he marginalized unfairly?

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romy says on Aug 19, 2008, 11:31:

is it a coincidence the high incidence of opposing politicians that have been murdered? The incrimination of Piedad Cordoba even, is a pretty clear-cut example. When one controls the media and other population control mechanisms, there is no need to directly get your hands dirty.

NGOs, unions, minorities, have all been marginalized unfairly.

You have to remember that Uribe's authoritarian style is as a demagogue...

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vicshere says on Aug 19, 2008, 11:31:

do you know its only one letter differance
tyranny tranny

listo

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Mr. Hollywood says on Aug 19, 2008, 11:53:

Romy, take a look at the history of Colombia before you start attributing those things to Uribe. Except for the part about Cordoba, who pretty much made her own bed if you ask me, everything else you cite has mostly improved under Uribe.

I'd also love some examples of Uribe's demagoguery. Compared to most S. American leaders he strikes me as downright subdued and matter-of-fact.

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quantum says on Aug 19, 2008, 11:57:

Gee, kinda sounds like the good ole U.S. of A. With the degree of cooperation that the Bush Admin has given the Uribe Admin I have few doubts of what their long term agenda would be.given his reelection. But what I dont get is that Uribe seems to maintain an incredibly high approval rating. While Bush/cheney is in the mud Uribe is riding high, on the crest of a big wave. How can u compete with that kind of popularity? Meanwhile the people behind Bush/Cheney control the majority of the media, but no real thinking person gets his information from conventional media sources anymore. I cant remember the last time I bought a newspaper.......

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Aug 19, 2008, 12:15:

Uribe's constant attacs on NGOs look very suspect. I can't for the life of me to comprehend that all these international organizations are in Colombia JUST TO MEDDLE with the government policies, to SUPPORT TERRORISTS, to lend assistance to revolutionaries. Say, HRW, Amnesty International, MSF, the Red Cross etc, humanitarian and religious organizations are seen as an enemy of the state. Why Colombia, when all these organizations have accomplished so much in defense of democracy, civil polutaion, war victims all over the world? In Colombia, they have been harassed, questioned, intimidated by Mr. Uribe and his cohorts.

Mr Uribes's attacks and criticism of the high courts in Colombia (the Supreme Court and tha Constitutional Court) makes him suspect of trying to impose his own laws over the state laws. The courts have every right to do their job without being accused, critized, hasrassed by the highest executive of the nation. It's the division of powers that is fundamental to every form of working democracy.

Mr. Uribe's passionate and energetic attacs on people who criticize him or blame him of wrongdoings; Gaviria, Petro etc opposition, the witch hunt mounted on Yidis Medina for having to courage to admit that she took bribes from uribe's people and has proof to back her up are other examples of his authoritarian character.

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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tasco66 says on Aug 19, 2008, 12:26:

Looks like the lefties are up to their usual propaganda madness today, spewing their continuous hate and lies about Uribe…

The more they post, the more Uribe’s popularity rises...

Keep on going, the laughs just keep on coming...

Not being bound to swear to the dogmas of any master

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romy says on Aug 19, 2008, 14:29:

Hollywood- first of all don't compare him to anyone because he's his own man, you can critizice anyone else on their own merits. If he can't stand on his own then he's not worth anyone standing up for him.
Then, look at the opposition these days... it's 'non-existant'. That's not a healthy sign of a democracy. Please indicate how things have improved under Uribe?

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quantum says on Aug 19, 2008, 14:30:

Tasco, u must think anybody to the left of Hitler is a crazed commie lovin fool. But whenever I see somebody mount an intelligent argument concerning the deficiencies of the Uribe govt. instead of a reasoned rebuttal we get a predictable kneejerk reaction from you. Respond to the points made in the discussion and maybe somebody will listen to you, maybe even me....

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billyb says on Aug 19, 2008, 15:33:

" the witch hunt mounted on Yidis Medina for having to courage to admit that she took bribes "

Too funny, so now it is COURAGEOUS to take bribes and be a piece of shit corrupt politician, as long as you admit to it when caught? I guess you consider her extorting people INTREPID? What do you consider her participation in kidnappings, downright HEROIC?

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Cheers Terry says on Aug 19, 2008, 15:51:

Agree with Quantum.

It's mind numbingly boring when the same pro/anti Uribe posters simply spew the same old empty, knee-jerk rhetoric.

If you don't have anything intelligent to add to the discussion, then why bother bringing down the IQ level of the thread in such a predictable manner? Honestly, grow up already...

Cheers,
Terry

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romy says on Aug 19, 2008, 15:53:

"Yidis Medina for having to courage to admit that she took bribes"

BB you have your glasses on old man? it's pretty clear to me what she meant... even with the grammatical mistake.

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Cheers Terry says on Aug 19, 2008, 16:04:

Sorry Romy, my glasses aren't on either. Please explain. Thanks.

Cheers,
Terry

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Mr. Hollywood says on Aug 19, 2008, 17:11:

"Hollywood- first of all don't compare him to anyone because he's his own man, you can critizice anyone else on their own merits."

Sorry, Romy, but when you start using words like "tyranny, authoritarian, demagogue..." you essentially demand comparison. I challenge you to show how President Uribe or his administration is a tyrant or authoritarian or, even, a demagogue, by the generally accepted definitions of those words.

I'm all for criticizing Uribe on his own merits or not, but that means saying something like, "I think that Uribe has focused his efforts too much on military might and not enough on social justice," or "I feel that Uribe running for a third term sets a dangerous precedent for Colombia." But you don't have to succumb to cliche and dumb rhetoric rather than making valid criticisms. Frankly, it undermines any credibility you may have.

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Sam Salmon says on Aug 19, 2008, 17:18:

>
Classic and I mean CLASSIC leftist apologist pendejada.

' a la orden!'

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turnmeon says on Aug 19, 2008, 17:22:

romy i have a question, what do you think about chavez and the way he is doing things in venezuela, do you think that the democracy in venezuela is becoming stronger under chavez precidency?

please answer straight up, says the monkey.

thank you.

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billyb says on Aug 19, 2008, 19:05:

" romy says on Aug 19 (today): flag

"Yidis Medina for having to courage to admit that she took bribes"

BB you have your glasses on old man? it's pretty clear to me what she meant... even with the grammatical mistake."


But of course it would be clear to you.

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juli says on Aug 19, 2008, 19:28:

Romy says: "Please indicate how things have improved under Uribe?"

You tell me how they have gotten worse and I'll show you how to have a conversation with a simp. Do I have to mention economy, unemployment, safety.... What exactly has Uribe done wrong? Please cite specific examples and save the $5.00 empty words professor. Until he lies about Weapons of Mass Destruction and invades Iraq I'd keep the Bush to Uribe comparison out of earshot of intelligent people.

Oh wait! There is a corrupt politician who took bribes. There's a first.

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romy says on Aug 19, 2008, 20:17:

Terry- When you stand up to the government you risk your life... that's the way things go in Colombia. Yidis did it, that's courage. Nobody's talking about anything else she might have done.

Hollywood I said "as a demagogue" because Uribe appeals "to the popular prejudices, emotions, fears and expectations of the public — typically via impassioned rhetoric and propaganda, and often using nationalist or populist themes." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demagogue). The tyrant stuff was written by Mr. Brittain, I was merely presenting the man's opinions.

turnmeon, I think democracy is becoming weaker under Chavez, same with Ecuador under Correa, and Colombia under Uribe. They're three men of the same breed.

juli- remind me (or yourself) of fosas comunes... IDPs... Colombian refugees to other nations... deaths of unionists... deaths of opposition politicians... pardoning of paramilitaries... impunity... extortion of voters... buying votes... rich getting richer and poor getting poorer... sesgated media. Now tell me how Uribe increased the value of crude and coal? also tell me how this is benefiting the country. Uribe's sole purpose in life is to destroy FARC and he will never achieve that, I'm sorry but his single-tracked politics would be acceptable had he actually achieved it. How many more terms should we give him?

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poco says on Aug 19, 2008, 20:47:

Quote: Meanwhile the people behind Bush/Cheney control the majority of the media,
======
Never fails,, look at the first thread and,,, My dose of humor for today !!!

:>)

Although,, there was the possibility of being put to sleep reading a long winded C&P article in Spanish,, by a Colombian political pundit. Yawn,,,, oh well,, this was good enough.

"When you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." Quote - General Tommy Franks

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Aug 19, 2008, 21:04:

"the courage to admit..." . Yidis Medina is not a heroine; she belongs to the very same political breed that has been corrupt as long as I remember. The exchange of favors, the clientelismo is a practice well-known to any Colombian politician. She, however, came clean and admitted that she had taken bribes to change the decisive vote for Uribe's re-election; I'm pretty sure she KNEW it meant the end of her political career.

It was only AFTER that Uribe and his people started diggin dirt on her and making up accusations of her being FARC, kidnapper and whatever.

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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dwmte7 says on Aug 19, 2008, 21:19:

just remember, uribe grew up 500mtrs from pablo.

dwmte

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Aug 19, 2008, 21:38:

According to some sources, the families are related.

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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dwmte7 says on Aug 19, 2008, 21:44:

well, where i come from....the family that lays together, stays together.

dwmte

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dwmte7 says on Aug 19, 2008, 21:45:

and, by the way.....there ain't no "other side of the tracks" in tablaso...it's all just one big happy family, layin together...........

dwmte

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dwmte7 says on Aug 19, 2008, 21:47:

or was that, "prays"?

dwmte

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goin_south says on Aug 19, 2008, 21:58:

Is there a law against El Presidente criticizing the 'high courts'???

Why Colombianitas? Personally... I just don't like pink areolar tissue.

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Aug 19, 2008, 22:08:

No, but I think the President ought to let the Courts do their job without accusing them of supporting the Farcs. The Supreme Court and the Constitutional Court ARE the checks and balances, they should enjoy a certain autonmomy for their work.

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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goin_south says on Aug 19, 2008, 22:14:

(Usted estas arriba con sus ojos abiertos ... MUCHO DAMASIADO TEMPRANO!)

Why Colombianitas? Personally... I just don't like pink areolar tissue.

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manINred says on Aug 19, 2008, 23:08:

This article is a joke. It is completely disingenuous about Uribe, saying that he is authoritarian, and thus implying that his election results are illigitimate. There is no evidence of this at all. He won the elections fairly, and where is the authoritarianism that they speak of?

His enduring support of the Colombian population is not because Colombians are inherently blind or retarded, but because they genuinely believe that he has done the country good. How arrogant can we as foreigners who look in from the outside be to discredit the country's choice?

He has his flaws, and questions about certain decisions he has made remain pressing and unanswered, but this is simply over the top.

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manINred says on Aug 19, 2008, 23:12:

The article actually decides to just lie: "Aside from standing at the top of the world’s list for highest rates of homicide and kidnapping, "

Colombia is not at the top of the list. It is currently 8th in the world for homicides, and I read that the kidnapping rate in Ecuador is now higher, although I have yet to see any figures on kidnapping.

So the fact that the article decides to spout lies as facts basically makes whatever conclusions it has invalid, in my opinion.

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Lcacique says on Aug 20, 2008, 00:52:

manINred:

I am not defending the article. I haven't even read it. But let me address something:

You claim that Colombia is now 8th in the world in homicides. Considering there are many countries on this planet, wouldn't that place Colombia at the top of the list? I guess it depends on your interpretation of the phrase, "top of the list." For example, how many students graduate at the top of their class? Personally, I wouldn't call it a lie (especially since Colombia had spent a long time higher up on that list just a few short years ago) and I am not sure that I would even consider it misleading; however, I appreciate and understand your point.

Like I said, I haven't read the article. It is possible that I would understand your POV a little more after reading it.

Hoy se nota en la floresta un ambiente de alegría. ¡Y el rumor de ranchería es mas dulce y sabe a fiesta!

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manINred says on Aug 20, 2008, 01:39:

Lcacique,

That thought did occur to me (and in that context it is not an outright lie as I claim), but I would rather not give the author the benefit of the doubt, considering that I do not believe that he takes a balanced approach at addressing the problems of the Uribe government at all.

What immediately sprang to mind was that what he referred to as 'the top of the list' was precisely that, the very top, number one. Even if he didn't mean that, Iraq that stands out as highest murder rate per 100,000 (89) is much higher up the list than Colombia (37). Even Venezuela by comparison has 65, so the 37/100,000 murder rate that Colombia suffers from, while disturbingly high, seems all too far from 'top of the list'.

The unfortunate part is that while he addresses several issues about Uribe's regime thatare disturbing, in general the article seems to blow the 'negatives' of the Uribe government out of proportion to the point of stupidity, detracting from the legitimacy of many of the author's claims, perhaps incapsulated as an example is the 'misleading' (to be generous) claim that Colombia 'tops the list' in world homicide rate.

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tasco66 says on Aug 20, 2008, 03:38:

“But whenever I see somebody mount an intelligent argument concerning the deficiencies of the Uribe govt"

What intelligent argument??? Please stop, I think I’m gonna die of laughter…

I have countered numerous times all these leftie diatribes against Uribe and Colombia. Just go to the archives. Sorry, but with the leftie infestation on this site, I don’t have the time to ridicule their every post…

Not being bound to swear to the dogmas of any master

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pobrecito says on Aug 20, 2008, 04:26:

"Please stop, I think I’m gonna die of laughter…"

Please, please, please ...

De que vale la vida si cuando la tenemos parece muerta. La vida es para sentirla, para vibrar, para luchar, para combatir. Eso justifica nuestro paso por la tierra........Jaime Pardo Leal

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billyb says on Aug 20, 2008, 06:37:

" Desideria (Moderator) says on Aug 19, 2008, 21:38: flag
According to some sources, the families are related."

Desi,can you name any sources? Or just more BS?

"It was only AFTER that Uribe and his people started diggin dirt on her and making up accusations "

Are you sure they are just accusations? After all, her phone cell records proved (after she kept denying, as opposed to COURAGEOUSLY admitting to it) that she was making extortive phone calls, even her lawyer admitted that yidis was a liar.

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Aug 20, 2008, 09:21:

According to La Otra Verdad journalist Julio César García Vásquez, Escobar's and Uribe's families are genealogically related, sharing a distant ancestor.[

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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romy says on Aug 20, 2008, 09:30:

isn't Obama related to McCain? if we look far enough back then we should all be related, unless if there's aliens amongst us... Or perhaps there's more than 1 Adam and Eve...

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Aug 20, 2008, 09:35:

I think we have aliens amongst us.

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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Tinto (Moderator) says on Aug 20, 2008, 09:55:

FYI, if it hasn't been mentioned already, the author of that article is a frequent contributor to Garry Leech's "Colombia Journal." Of course it's biased, selective and molds the truth to fit an existing view. Whaddya' expect from a pro-FARC Canuck Commie?

http://www.colombiajournal.org/colombia273.htm

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dwmte7 says on Aug 20, 2008, 09:56:

desi...need your help...go to the opening thread in 'colombia' and you'll see,

thanks.

douglas

dwmte

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turnmeon says on Aug 20, 2008, 11:16:

Desideria
"According to La Otra Verdad journalist Julio César García Vásquez, Escobar's and Uribe's families are genealogically related, sharing a distant ancestor.["

dont we all share the same ancestors? if you go back on time you will see how we all come from the same ameba?, so even your neighbors cat is related to us, we are made of the same materials that our planet is made of...(i think im going way back into time and too much into science lol)

"I think we have aliens amongst us."

can i make a post about that? i been reading alot about UFOs, i think it will be interesting to see what all the PBHers think about aliens(without being called crazy)

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turnmeon says on Aug 20, 2008, 11:19:

i think the problem here is not "The Road to Tyranny in Colombia- A Third Term in Office", but instead "The Road to Tyranny in Latin America" since it seems they all want stay on the power

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romy says on Aug 20, 2008, 11:24:

I'm not sure about the whole cats related to human bit turnmeon... I don't really care to look up the phylogeny anyways.
You should start your ET post, anything from me will be constructive criticism.
oh and if you want to write "The Road to Tyranny in Latin America" I'll edit it and we'll publish in Upside Down World

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Aug 20, 2008, 11:24:

Sure...you can make a post about aliens amongst us...in off-topic "do your thing" forum:)

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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Lcacique says on Aug 20, 2008, 12:57:

Well, I read the article. It may be biased; however, like you point out manINred, it does express what should be serious concerns about the current situation in Colombia. The parapolitica scandal is a disturbing reality for a country that supposedly is the longest running democracy in the region. Frankly, it is deplorable but not surprising given Colombia's history. I agree that there has been no credible evidence that has demonstrated that Uribe was involved; however, that does not mean that evidence will not surface in the future. Personally, I HOPE he was not involved but I cannot help but have suspicions given the scope of the scandal, the infiltration of Colombia's institutions by the AUC, the situation in Colombia, and Uribe's hatred of the FARC. The extradition of members of the AUC is also unfortunate. Whether it was intentional or not, it is disappointing because it dramatically reduces the opportunity to obtain helpful information. If it was intentional, it is even more disheartening.

I for one acknowledge that Uribe's administration has had some great moments. There are certainly things to celebrate. His approval ratings are off the charts, a rarity for a Colombian president. But approval ratings can change over night. In addition, I see nothing wrong with criticism or asking tough questions. There was a time not to long ago when the current US president had a high approval rating (I am not comparing the presidents) and anyone who asked a question or criticized his policies was instantly labeled unpatriotic. That is an undeniable fact. People were viciously supportive of the president. That is a fact. Now look at his rating. More and more people are recognizing what others realized a long time ago. The evidence was always there in the case of the US president, but people either ignored it, did not have access to it, or chose to trust the words of the administration. Nevertheless, things can change quickly. Again, I am not comparing Bush to Uribe. Nor am I implying that there WILL be evidence that will connect him to the paras. Like I said, I hope he was not involved. I simply understand that it is a possibility and I think that criticism is a vital characteristic of a functioning democracy.

With respect to aliens, I know that they exist. In fact, here in Oregon you'll find tons of them working in the fields for slave wages. They are superior workers and they are extremely friendly.

Hoy se nota en la floresta un ambiente de alegría. ¡Y el rumor de ranchería es mas dulce y sabe a fiesta!

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dwmte7 says on Aug 20, 2008, 13:21:

they're probably a bunch of leftist commie conspirators in disguise, waiting for the opportune moment to strike. watch out for yourself, cacique.

dwmte

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Lcacique says on Aug 20, 2008, 14:16:

The aliens, dwmte7? I have considered it...but lately I am wondering if I too am a commie conspirator in disguise. I write an opinion here that I feel has nothing to do with ideology and the responses come back that I am a comrade. It has been a while since I last pledged allegiance to the flag...maybe I should go to a monster truck rally and see if I am still capable.

Hoy se nota en la floresta un ambiente de alegría. ¡Y el rumor de ranchería es mas dulce y sabe a fiesta!

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manINred says on Aug 20, 2008, 18:27:

Very well said Lcacique from a very nicely-balanced point of view.

"Nor am I implying that there WILL be evidence that will connect him to the paras. Like I said, I hope he was not involved."

I also hope he was not involved. A president who maintains such trust and popularity among his people only to turn out to be a para probably would not be good for Colombia, and would be a slap in the face to ordinary Colombians.

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Lcacique says on Aug 20, 2008, 21:36:

Thanks, manINred. I mean it.

Hoy se nota en la floresta un ambiente de alegría. ¡Y el rumor de ranchería es mas dulce y sabe a fiesta!

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Dolfi says on Aug 21, 2008, 07:11:

On the other hand it might help to start a learning process about strong men and caudillos.

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juli says on Aug 23, 2008, 08:28:

Didja ever notice how you never see Uribe and Pablo in the same photo? I think they're the same guy. Some sort of protection program, plastic surgery. Pablo is still ALIVE - IT''S URIBE!

The truth is out.

Highest homocide? Number 1 in Kidnapping? Stupid people are always uniting - writers and readers.

Corruption in politics? I'm totally flabbergasted. However did you uncover all this Romy? And to think none of this occured ever in Colombia before Uribe, who is no doubt behind everything.

I fly home tomorrow!

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romy says on Aug 23, 2008, 08:43:

is homocide when they kill off the homos?... I guess little of your comment makes any sense.
farewell

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juli says on Aug 24, 2008, 09:21:

You can look up the definition of homicide if you are confused, I'm sure you got the homo thing under control. My comment may not make sense but then again you are not Colombian.

I fly in an hour and can't wait to hear the Argentinian Canadian's views - too bad I won't return to this thread. And yet somehow life goes on.

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romy says on Aug 24, 2008, 10:07:

Too bad for me, I enjoyed your verse...

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