Colombia's Dark Side

kat1 (Moderator) says on Feb 7, 2005, 10:17:

This happened in Hereford UK
My bag was stolen in under my nose in a "changing room"
My son was pushed out and two thugs stole his watch
His friend mobile was stolen too.
Somebody went in to my friends garage and stole the machines that her husband use in his canpenter work.
They tell you to take care in the ATM cos people are put in a kind of device to check your pin number.
And I can tell you many stories that happend in this city, and is considered safe.......
ahhhh and somebody broke in to my husband car and stole the radio.

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miamimike says on Feb 7, 2005, 10:41:

GIB-Happens here in Miami also We see alot of the same crap happening here in Miami--I read the daily crime reports(along with the other news also)and what goes on here amazes me.Purse snatchings, GrabBys of gold chains from people's necks, vehicle break-ins,ect. When I moved to Miami 10 yrs. ago bought my Condo-I installed 4 deadbolts + an alarm on my condo door. My neighbors thought I was Crazy-well some of those same neighbors had their condos broke in-now the have the same locks I have.Looks like Ft. Knox but hey-you do what you gotta do! I DOuble Club my Car's steering wheel at night in Miami. Avoid ATMS at night. People ask later why they got nailed-many times , as Jimmy Buffet Croons "Was my own damn fault". Really disturbing though is the part about those guys knowing how the people had the $3 grand cash--this was an inside job with the Bank Teller's complicity tipping those thugs off about the withdrawal--Nasty! You like to trust your bank. Here the clerks in some stores and businesses sell the credit card info. so they use the customer's credit line-widespread here. Got to keep the guard wherever!

On Sept 17, 2008: Senator John McCain said, as he had many times before, that he believed the fundamentals of the economy were "strong."Hours later he backpedaled, explaining that he had meant that American workers were Strong.

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Atogob says on Feb 7, 2005, 10:48:

Colombia Dark Side I'm planning a trip to Colombia, but I live in Newark, NJ... Where I have experienced:

A mugging outside my door where 2 attackers brandished a machette on a Brazilian man exiting a bank

My mother was beaten in my own house

Multiple cars stolen, broken into vadalized. My personal favorite are the high school kids that will "key" a car (scrath paint off with their house keys) on the way home. For kicks... gues the "city" doesn't give then enough to do after school.

Anykind of sports, flashy magazines newspaper, or USPS package left on the doorstep for more than 1 hour vansihes. They leave all the bills and junk main though...

Mother mugged

Brother Help up at gunpoint

I've been jumped.

My brother's been jumped.

The list goes on... but Colombia's prettier than Newark I hear.

Brother came home and left his car for no more than 1o seconds to pcikup main when 2 "youths" tried to car-jack his car. A kick to the head sent the perp on the run...


The one benefit of all this? I'll never have to serve on jurry duty in Newark or Essex county, I simplye recall these stories and I'm quickly dismissed.

Colombia seems like a pleasant diversion.

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N2Aquatix says on Feb 7, 2005, 11:01:

How much for the women? I don't know if you would consider this a dark side event, but when I was in Barranquilla last year one of the guards at the hotel asked me if I wanted some women. I thought it was kind of funny actually.

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juanalejo says on Feb 7, 2005, 11:10:

Stay at Home Thededalus: I think you need to go back home to suburbia and stay there, because what you mentioned, not only happens in Colombia, but in most countries around the world, including the US. The problem that those of who get upset of the posting is that make Colombia as a unique dangerous place in the world, and if you come from Little Rock, Arkansas it may very well seem so. The truth is that the country has a guerrilla/paramilitary conflict which hardly touches directly most of the population, it has problems with kidnapping which touches mostly rich people or people in remote areas. And it has a problem of street crime like any other nation where there is poor people, and it this specific sense Colombia feels much safer that most other Latinamerican nations. So many problems are around but those of us who live here, it does make us upset, becuase 90% of the things that are to happen, have never happened to us, and although we are aware of the possible danger around we seem to live happier lives that those who have nothing to do but sit infront of their computer and post in this site 24 hrs a day bashing against Colombia in some supposedly safer part of the world.

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kat1 (Moderator) says on Feb 7, 2005, 11:36:

Why did a group of Colombians run away from a computer lab.

Because the computer said you have performed an illegal operation and will be shutdown. hehe

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utopiacowboy says on Feb 7, 2005, 11:44:

Thededalus, this is the fantasyland site about Colombia, where everyone indulges in their fantasies about what a poor Third World country should really be like. No one writes about what it is actually like where most people live in poverty and many children grow up without fathers because they have been killed in the never ending violence.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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N2Aquatix says on Feb 7, 2005, 11:47:

LMAO at UC

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kat1 (Moderator) says on Feb 7, 2005, 11:48:

UC
SOB SOB :`(

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Thededalus says on Feb 7, 2005, 11:56:

... "Thededalus: I think you need to go back home to suburbia and stay there"

I'll do what I want. Thanks for the advice.

"...And it has a problem of street crime like any other nation where there is poor people"

Because it happens elsewhere, Colombian street crime is irrelevant?

"The truth is that the country has a guerrilla/paramilitary conflict which hardly touches directly most of the population"

I'm well aware of the guerrilla/paramilitary conflict and nothing I mentioned has anything at all to do with it.

"and it this specific sense Colombia feels much safer that most other Latinamerican nations"

What are you basing this on?

"because 90% of the things that are to happen, have never happened to us, and although we are aware of the possible danger "

I don't know if you noticed, but everything I listed, at worst, happened to a friend of a friend. I didn't mention stories that someone had heard through the cousin of the mother of some friend's barber. These were regular people.

"who have nothing to do but sit infront of their computer and post in this site 24 hrs a day bashing against Colombia in some supposedly safer part of the world"

I find it funny that after one post, you conclude I have nothing to do but bash Colombia 24 hours a day, especially since I also explicitly wrote that I had a wonderful experience overall. And there is no "supposedly" about it, my part of the world is safer I hate to tell you. Does that mean I think "my part" is "better"? Nowhere have I said that...

What are you afraid of anyways? This post actually might help somebody.

GIB & the rest: Thanks for your posts. Your points are well taken.

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Pirovito says on Feb 7, 2005, 11:57:

N.J. Those kind of things happen in New Jersey too.
I live in Jersey City, in the richest part of the city with all the doctors and I have seen:
One of the doctors left his bookbag next to his dad's car and went back inside the house for the car's keys and when he was back the bookbag was gone.
One friend got beat up by a bunch of chumps (u know what i mean).

And the list goes on.

So if it happens here it happens anywhere!

Thanks!

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Thededalus says on Feb 7, 2005, 12:10:

... UC,

Thanks for reminding me this is really a fantasy site. I had forgotten, but I will get back on track, and post accordingly...Stay tuned for my next post:

Ajiaco: The Greatest Soup Ever in the History of the World!

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sebasenbogotá says on Feb 8, 2005, 03:55:

Thededalus a question Hey, how did you come here, I mean what exchange were you on? I am just wondering what exchange programs were sending people to Colombia, when I was at school, there was a Belgian and then a GErman guy, but well no more exchange students came again, that was like in 2000.

Rotary? YFU?, EF, ASpect? Anyone knows?

Suerte !

Sebas

Suerte ! Sebas

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Thededalus says on Feb 8, 2005, 04:23:

Sebas I went to Los Andes through the ISEP program. When I went, there were quite a few foreigners. Most stayed only a semester, but some stayed for two like me. Offhand, I want to say there was about 15 of us either semester. However, placements to Colombia have since been suspended for safety reasons and Los Andes no longer appears as an available site...

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Gator says on Feb 8, 2005, 07:04:

These things happen but are you sure... this was not New York City or the area around Miami International Airport like Liberty City or Overtown? Have those of us who live here had problems? Sure, but not to any real extent. Do any of us who live here know of relatives or friends who have had problems? Sure! Do any of us who now live here have friends, relatives or neighbors from the USA who have been robbed, assaulted or even murdered in the USA? Sure? That being the case what does Thededalus's post prove?

BTW, Thededalus, you could not have picked a better university than the Universidad de los Andes. My wife is a graduate. I personally think your post does list many of the incidents that happen but it is NOT endemic in Colombia.

"Credidi pretio parvo emere et magno vendere tibi in animo fuisse!" .

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Lowell says on Feb 8, 2005, 08:43:

It's not that hard to exercise some caution Being a retired PI and prior work in Criminal Justice, that work has tainted me a little. I'm always a little over cautious. As soon as I sell my place in Panama, my wife and I are moving to Colombia. Yes, I have sone concerns and worries. I've learned to try to fit in where ever I go. With my experience of being a PI, I find that one of the best things to do is dress as the local do. And do as the locals do. Another thing I do is I try to have a guide or local/friend as a companion when I'm away from my residence. About the only time that I'm alone is my sunrise rapid walking that I like to do for one hour. Even with that, I change my routes all the time to see new areas and to not set a pattern for possible attack. I even carry my cheap "Walmart" watch in my pocket.

I agree with GIB. Many times its the "Bozo" tourist/visitor that sets the stage for others at a later time to have problems. I see these people all the time in Panama and I feel like going up to them and shaking them. They're like sitting ducks. Have they never read the papers or watched the news on how obvious people are likely victims? I guess not. I like GIB hate to see things ruined. California, the Islands, Baja California, parts of Mexico, Costa Rica........... have been ruined. Panama in the next 10 - 20 years will also follow. I guess that's the natural progression of things. What a shame! It'll be so sad to see Colombia follow in the same direction. Colombia is such a beautiful country. I look forward to the day when more of the country side/lakes/mountains become safer to visit. I love to fish and walk in these area. Have a fun safe time in Colombia. Just watch you back trail. Leaving for a walk now with my wife at "Ammador" A beautiful place with outstanding views of the city and bay while walking next to the ocean.

LWA

Alfred E. Newman. "What. Me Worry?"

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Thededalus says on Feb 8, 2005, 09:27:

Gator... "Do any of us who now live here have friends, relatives or neighbors from the USA who have been robbed, assaulted or even murdered in the USA? Sure? That being the case what does Thededalus's post prove?"

Like I said in my original post, I grew up in suburbia, so my experience was skewed. The worst I had heard of regarding people that I *knew* was maybe a couple of stolen car radios. I understand people who are from NY, or Miami, or some other large urban city, or even smaller, rougher towns are more accustomed to this type of stuff.

However, I don't think it is right to just write it off as big city stuff. Do entire in-city buses in NY get robbed? Do taxi drivers take their passengers into alley ways so they can be mugged? Does the mafia show up at your door to steal your newly changed money? Do ATM machines magically swallow your card and take all your money? Some of the stuff is common like having your daypack taking from under your nose, but some of the other crap, I imagine, is rough even by NY standards. As GIB point out, this stuff is less frequent these days, and I hope he's right. But really, who am I hurting by sharing this information, except those who feel this stuff should be ignored or explained away as a matter of national pride?

So my point was to show that Bogotá isn't all roses and sunshine. Maybe to many this is pointing out the obvious, but to others I think it is helpful toward providing a balanced perspective. I love Colombia. I hope that is apparent, but, nevertheless I think it is useful to give examples like these, instead of the typical response here: "Sure, it can be dangerous, but if you use common sense, you'll be fine." Some actual examples, may put a more realistic face on the dangers and annoyances a new traveler might come across.

Meanwhile, Gator, yeah, I thought Los Andes was excellent. I had an great time there...and plenty of exercise :)

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Atogob says on Feb 8, 2005, 10:30:

Thededalus, I can see how the suburbian upbringing can create a bit of culture shock. I know folks who are scared to come to the New York area for trade shows due to it's repuation for crime.

Your point IS well taken by me though...

In your expereince what are some of the "un-safer" barrios in Bogota?

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Thededalus says on Feb 8, 2005, 11:17:

Atogob My input here might be outdated, but generally speaking I was extremely uncomfortable in la Candelaria at night. It is dead on the weekends, as well.

If you're downtown, you probably should not walk west of Carrera 10, if even that far. I probably wouldn't go south of calle 1 or so either on foot.

I lived in Modelia, Normandia, el Polo Club and Candelaria for different stints of time. I felt very safe in all those places except, of course, la Candelaria.

Chapinero is generally safe, but also a little shady at night. I think some other threads here, especially in Peter's safety section, go into more detail.

I'll let the others expand on or correct my input from here.

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miamimike says on Feb 8, 2005, 11:25:

ATOGOB--Unicentro for one and this is Why... A Buddy of mine who is Colombian/American and Born in Bogota(by Santa BArbara)will be the Topic.Remember now-he does not look like a german or Northamerican; Two years ago around 7 pm he called a Taxi from Unicentro in the north(we all know unicentro--pretty nice place I think we could all agree on)a few minutes down the street the taxi pulls over and before my buddy could protest :"hey whats going driver", another call pull up behind the taxi-two guys got out and got into the back seat of the taxi--with my buddy between both of these guys. They Blindfolded him and drove him down to south bogota(not far from where the Tourist Train departs)--bad area at night. The had him get out of the Taxi--they robbed him of his watch, small gold ring(not big or flashy) and maybe $20mil pesos. His ATM, credit cards were in his socks-hidden so they never checked there--lucky. They placed him against a building and still blindfolded, told him not to move for 15 minutes. He complied and later went to a nearby house and called the police but the perpetrators of the act were never caught. Remember--this guy speaks perfect spanish with a Bogota accent-as he was born and raised there--he looked like the Colombian he is. He is well traveled in his job--worldwide and all over south and central america for 25 years--so he is no johnny come lately to south american travel--no one's fool so to speak. Did everything correct.He got nailed and damn near lost his life. He still returns 3 times yearly because his family still lives by Santa Barbara. In the same time period-and neighborhood-Unicentro, his brother in law had his new Chevy Suv Carjacked at a Redlight about 10pm in the evening-all this with one family in the period od a week or so. So what is safe?

On Sept 17, 2008: Senator John McCain said, as he had many times before, that he believed the fundamentals of the economy were "strong."Hours later he backpedaled, explaining that he had meant that American workers were Strong.

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Mr. Hollywood says on Feb 8, 2005, 11:33:

Dark side If only people getting robbed of a little money or a backpack were the "dark side" of Colombia.

I count the dark side as the FARC bombing a church full of people taking shelter, the AUC beheading people they don't like with a chainsaw, human beings locked in cages in the jungle for years at a time while their families receive ransom demand after ransom demand, etc.

People steal shit and rob people in every country. Its the other stuff that is fairly unique to Colombia.

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miamimike says on Feb 8, 2005, 11:41:

Tell that to my Buddy Hollywood you are right in what you say--however my Buddy told me that was one scary Taxi Ride that night. If you someone who almost lost his life as he did that night--the method is a moot point. You do not see the Dawn the next morning. Being a Zerox Engineer and familiar with Statistics--he theorized that his Number simply came up. He went to Bogota, by his account, some 75 times over the years,since the late 60s.Its like fishing-the more you have a baited hook in the water-better your chances of hooking one. And he had his "Hook" in the water once too many times. The statisical law of Averages caught up to him.

On Sept 17, 2008: Senator John McCain said, as he had many times before, that he believed the fundamentals of the economy were "strong."Hours later he backpedaled, explaining that he had meant that American workers were Strong.

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kernow62 says on Feb 8, 2005, 12:02:

I don't even wear my wedding ring or a watch when I travel to Colombia. I do the same in Liverpool or Glasgow too, better safe than sorry. Neither item is something I need on me while on holiday so why tempt anyone. Nobody is on time anyway so I figure I fit in by always running late.

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Mr. Hollywood says on Feb 8, 2005, 12:48:

miamimike Mike, I didn't mean to downplay the trauma of being robbed like your friend. I know how scary and upsetting that can be. My point, to just blurt it out, is that something like that happens every day in cities around the world, including the US and Europe. I only wish that robberies at gunpoint were the worst things happening in Colombia. But the dark side, sadly, is much darker.

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miamimike says on Feb 8, 2005, 13:13:

You are correct Jim- same for me in Miami--no gold, watches for me either. Nothing Flashy. 4 neighbors here in miami have had their gold chains snatched from their neck at various locations in Miami. 3 locals who had Rolex watches have been killed in the miami area in the last 2 years only for their watches. Amazing.

Hollywood you are right -many things worse are transpiring like that miami colombian guy who returned to Bogota to open a business and then was shaken down by the street thugs. On the other hand-here in Miami a few days ago they caught 3 NYC Mafiosos shaking down local miami businessmen so it happens here also.

On Sept 17, 2008: Senator John McCain said, as he had many times before, that he believed the fundamentals of the economy were "strong."Hours later he backpedaled, explaining that he had meant that American workers were Strong.

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juanalejo says on Feb 8, 2005, 13:33:

Dark Side The main reason many why many of us get upset with the posts here is simply because the dark side of Colombia is well publicised around the world, yet the bright side is basically inexistant for the outside world. Sites like these are created to open a different view on the country, not denying the horrible things that happen daily, but making sure that information is correctly put in context for those who know nothing about the country. Like I have said before one thing which is the guerrilla/paramilitary conflict is one undeniable fact but another is the regular street crime that happens here less than in most other latinamerican countries. Not that is an excuse but it gives some perspective for those who know something about the world outside the US. Unfortunatelly there are some regular posters of doom and gloom whose sole purpose in life is to talk against anything good posted in this site regardless. I just hope that they one day realize, that not giving the right perspective has for many years kept many investors away, and that every time they see somebody begging in the street they maybe realize that a big part is their own fault for being so blind in always trying to compare US suburbia to downtown Bogota.

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Mr. Hollywood says on Feb 8, 2005, 13:47:

I appreciate your optimism Juanalejo, I really appreciate your optimism and understand the frustrations of Colombians whose beautiful country is often seen one-dimensionally by the outside world, but it's not fair to say that "not seeing the right perspective has kept investors away". Plenty of US and foreign countries invested heavily in Colombia and had their shirts handed to them. They had their employees kidnapped and their infrastructure destroyed. It's a question of reality, not bad PR.

Hopefully as the security situation continues to improve more investment will poor into Colombia because the country really deserves prosperity.

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juanalejo says on Feb 8, 2005, 14:30:

Plenty more And plenty more still invest have invested, made lots of money and are still around, unfortunatelly not enough to help the people you see in the street. A big part of that is because those who do not invest is because they have a lop sided view of the country and it takes a huge ammount of PR to make them even visit the country. Once they finally decide to come they see things, they talk to Colombian business people, they suddenly see a very different Colombia and they invest. That is the truth, I see it day in and day out, that is part of what I do for a living, that is why I get so upset, because we have to spend so much in making an effort just to have investors look around, but I can say the payback is fantastic, most of them always come back and invest.

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Thededalus says on Feb 8, 2005, 15:52:

Juanalejo Your points are well taken.

I didn’t realize I was a cog in the wheel of negative PR, which apparently is the real reason that Colombia is lacking investors and kids are on the streets begging for money. I regret posting my real-life examples of things that happened to me or people I know. I now realize how irrelevant they are since US suburbia is an unreasonable comparison. Knowing people who were robbed, sometimes violently, is a mute point since, well, it happens in Quito too. I forgot that since this site is more about pumping up Colombian nationalism, and less about open discussion, that I should only compare Bogotá to places that are equally dangerous or more so – my bad.

Anyways, my apologies to the poor kids on the streets of Bogotá.

And to any prospective travelers out there, my real-life examples are only realistic exaggerations of reality that cannot happen to you. Remember just use common sense.

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Atogob says on Feb 8, 2005, 16:14:

juanalejo Visiting the country is one thing. Realisticaly...I would never expect most companies to consider setting up shop and investing millions into a country that can't control the various factions at large. That's why China has so much business from US & EU companies, even with all it's problems. With that said, shouldn't we have the good, bad, and ugly here and decide for ourselves.

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BlondeJamesBond says on Feb 8, 2005, 18:23:

Thededalus Q&A Q. Do entire in-city buses in NY get robbed?
A. No, here in London they rob whole trains on the underground, it is known as "steaming"

Q. Do taxi drivers take their passengers into alley ways so they can be mugged?
A. Yes, my next door neighbour.

Q. Does the mafia show up at your door to steal your newly changed money?
A. No, but filthy, thieving, travelling gypsies do all they can

Q.Do ATM machines magically swallow your card and take all your money?
A.Apparently the statistics in London are that up to 1 in 10 cash machines have been tampered with.

Other personal inccidents that I can think of off the top of my head:

In trendy Soho a female friend was attacked with a samurai sword and attempted raped by three men.

A policeman was shot through his hat, 20 meters from my front door while performing a routine stop. Happened on bonfire night, I thought it was fireworks!

My brother mugged

More famous headlines about tourists in London:

American stabbed to death while jogging in park.
Austrian tourist gang raped and thrown in the Thames

These sort of stories present a negative picture of London, but the truth is IF you keep your street smarts about you, stick to the 'safe' areas then you should be fine, and i'm sure that applies to every city across the world.

We are ALL vunerable to random acts of madness, but there is really nothing we can do about them, aside from sit in a room with no windows.

Wherever you are London, Colombia, NYC, Miami, etc - S at *t happens. If we listened only to the bad things that do happen, then we really would be too scared to step out of the front door.

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kernow62 says on Feb 8, 2005, 19:44:

Hey Miamimike, I had a skinny crack head grab my gold chain at the bus station in Orlando a few years back, he was stomped like an hormiga, he was wriggling all over the place. Those skinhead skankin' days served me well, and I didn't even have my bovver boots on! You sholda seen me dance.

Ah the good ol' days. Listening to Judge Dread, smokin' a spliff and hitting all the black clubs in town, looking for a thick black gal with an oversize mumpie. I've come over all nostalgic like.

Back to reality...

Last week another tourist was shot here in Orlando (thankfully a relatively minor wound), there is usually one every week or two, but still the tourists keep coming. Oh I forgot a few blocks from my house the manager of the Walgreens was shot and killed because he cut some guy off in traffic.

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goosekirk says on Feb 8, 2005, 20:59:

Great stuff, dull argument Here's my executive summary of this thread:

1. Colombia has terrible violence due to the war and drug trafficking and organized crime, however, these things very, very rarely affect foreigners traveling here.

2. Colombia has street crime that does affect tourists, but whether or not it's more or less dangerous than other places (which I think is how most tourists calculate their level of safety) is probably impossible to quantify.

The problem is that most tourists hear about the war and kidnapping and so on, and assume they are at terrible risk just by walking the streets here. On this site, when the safety question appears, some posters do their best to reassure visitors that they are not at any particularly elevated risk here. Other posters refute that by claiming that the first group are living in fantasyland, and there are plenty of examples of bad things that happen, so tourists beware.

This argument gets tiresome.

People get shot and robbed and stabbed in Orlando all the time, but nobody but nobody ever says, oh my, don't go to DisneyWorld, don't you know it's dangerous in Orlando?

Everybody on the planet knows two (and usually only two) things about Colombia: one is that drugs come from here and the other is that no one should come here 'cause it's dangerous.

So you got your backpack stolen. Or you were mugged in a cab. So what? Happens everywhere. Is it more or less likely in Bogota, Lima, Orlando, or Moscow - number one, it's really impossible to say for sure, and two, what difference does it make? If it happens to you, it's going to suck just as much no matter where it happened.

The impression the average person has is that the odds of something bad happening to a visitor in Colombia are extremely, very, really quite high. The reality that I see in Bogota is that (right now) it's not significantly different from other countries either way. You want to quibble whether the odds are 0.15% here and 0.16% in Lima and 0.14% in Miami... I don't see the point.

Everyone but everyone knows that going to a large Latin American city is "more dangerous" than curling up in a fetal position in the back corner of your barn in East Bumf**k, Arkansas. Contrary to the accusations of "fantasyland," I don't see people on this board telling anyone that Colombia is absolutely safe, like hey, come on down with your fannypack leaking $100 bills and go anywhere you please, you'll be fine!

What I see are people coming to this board wanting an opinion from someone who knows, because they have the impression that when they step off the airplane here, there will be people lined up waiting to beat them, rob them, chop their heads off, kidnap them, jam cocaine up their nose, and heaven forbid, extort them. There's nothing wrong with telling people to relax, chill out, it's not that bad, and the odds of something untoward happening to you, personally, are just not that high. Yes, the more you travel outside your little Appalachain village, the more likely it is that something bad will happen while you are traveling. Maybe it happens in Colombia or Peru or London or Orlando or South Bend, but more or less, the same obvious rules apply... don't go to the wrong side of the tracks and try not to be dumb.

And Thededalus, your experiences are coming up on six to seven years out of date. I don't think there's any question things were significantly worse in those years, but at least there's one thing we can quantify: the overwhelming majority of ATMs here don't retain your card anymore (apparently due to problems like your friend experienced).

Having said ALL THAT... I absolutely love to see these examples of street crime being posted. I think they can be instructive and helpful for everyone, no matter where they are traveling, and I'd be thrilled to see more of 'em. It's only the inevitable back-and-forth go-nowhere argument that follows that gets old.

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Thededalus says on Feb 8, 2005, 23:16:

... Goose,

Thanks for you response. Your points are well taken (no sarcasm this time). One thing I wanted to clarify is that back in the day (98-99), ATM's pretty much always immediately spit your card back out. I remember this, b/c it has always pissed me off that ever since I returned to the US, ATM's here needlessly hold onto your card until the end of your transaction. I don't recall if every ATM in Colombia did the immediate "spit" back then, but I know the majority did.

James,

Your points are also well taken...however, not to be a Colombian poo-poo'er, but of your 4 questions, you only have one personal tie, and I'm assuming you've lived most of your life in London. I, on the other hand, lived one year in Bogota, and have personal knowledge of my "Q's". Again, I'm not trying to bash Colombia, and my experiences are unique to me, but the fact that my examples have personal ties, in my opinion, give me reason to believe that this stuff is (or was in my day) higher than in normal big cities.

Back to goose,

Sure, it's all relative. I've probably repeated the same point(s) now 5 or more times to the poor PBH readers, but so be it. I suppose at this point real statistics would shut us all up once and for all. Again, thanks for your post and for your examples. You are right: Bogota isn't the only place that sorry shit happens. And:

"Having said ALL THAT... I absolutely love to see these examples of street crime being posted. I think they can be instructive and helpful for everyone, no matter where they are traveling, and I'd be thrilled to see more of 'em. It's only the inevitable back-and-forth go-nowhere argument that follows that gets old."

A-freakin' Men

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HODAD26 says on Feb 8, 2005, 23:23:

was in Colombia 3 motnhs, will return i lived el salvador, 8 yea Michael Johnson Senor Pescadoand in Colombia they thought i was crazy to live in el salvador most said, woow, el salvador... but there is dangerous!!
Cali rules, san andres is THE besr caribe island
tropicooltours has pictures... jaaaaaaaaa
better there than here in USA with too many people wanitn to blow us up, and it will happen, soon
there will never be talibams with nukes in Colombia, or nuke plants either
they have it WAY over USA
americans are fat,lazt,arrogant, and uneducated
and only 5% of this planet, get real folks, go travel, but be nice and keep your eyes open,

Michael Johnson Senor Pescado

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Mr. Hollywood says on Feb 9, 2005, 07:47:

Extortion police My understanding is that the Gaula are anti-extortion as well as anti-kidnapping cops. I don't know how effective they are at it, though.

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