Imperfect and Preterit Verb Tenses

ElPadrino1 says on Dec 2, 2005, 08:51:

The second tense, Imperfecto de Indicativo is of course a past tense(one of the past tenses, as all together there are 14 tenses in Spanish(7 simple, 7 compound ). The Imperfect suggests incomplete, an action or state that was continous inthe past and whose fulfilling(ment)is not indicated. Some good examples of the Imperfecto's use would be: Mi hermana leia y mi padre habalaba or Mi Hermana cantaba cuando yo entre. Another example of it's use is to express an action a person habitually did in the past such as; cuando estabamos en Cali, Ibamos a Cine todos los Sabados or cuando viviamos en Fusa, ibamos al rio todas los dias.

Desdcribing a mental, emotional or even a physical condition that happened in the past: Queria ir al Taberna or Estaba contento de verlo mi amigo or mi novia Era Bonita cuando era joven.

Preterito: use this tense when you want to express an action you completed always at some point in time in the past:
example: Mi Novia llego ayeror Mi Novia fue a al iglesia ayeror Que Paso? or Que Hizo?

The Imperfecto creates many problems for many(not all) non spanish speaking students. Good Luck.

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Mr. Hollywood says on Dec 2, 2005, 11:10:

Simpler explanation Preterit = completed past action ie. "I ate", yo comí.

Imperfect = ongoing action in the past or state of being. "I was eating" or "I used to eat". yo comia.

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ElPadrino1 says on Dec 2, 2005, 11:29:

True but its a complicated tense(f non-romance langauge speakers and cannot be explained in such a simple manner. It if could be, non spanish speaking(or better said, non romance speaking persons learning)would not have the problem to begin with.

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Mr. Hollywood says on Dec 2, 2005, 11:52:

Estoy de acuerdo I completely agree, Padrino, and your explanation was great. I just figured Aaron might be looking for a simple, if less complete, explanation.

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utopiacowboy says on Dec 2, 2005, 12:56:

I don't understand why it is considered complicated. English has an imperfect tense which is used in a similar manner to that in Spanish. The use of the subjunctive in Spanish - now that IS confusing for an English speaker.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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ElPadrino1 says on Dec 2, 2005, 13:48:

If its so easy, why don't you see more Non Romance(key) langauge students properly expressing themselves in this tense? Its a rarity! Seems like everyone(students AND native speakers of the langauge also) talks in the Present and past tense. Its a rarity to see someone(student) actually conjugate the Verb and us it alone, example : Voy ir a mi casa; almost never do you hear(from a non romance langauge speaker)Ire a mi casa. UTC, for someone like you with Exceptional langauge assimilation and learning abilities, it is easy; for the rest of us who struggle with a langauge, it may be more difficult. And yes, the Subjunctive is a difficult concept for many Non Romance langauge speakers(someone who may not already speak Italian, Portuguese, French)and is just learning spanish.

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jalf12 says on Dec 2, 2005, 14:18:

Motion Picture or Snapshot I think Mr. Hollywood hit the mark but this might help.
One of my spanish teachers explained it to me like this and I understand it more now that I've practiced these tenses. The imperfect is like a motion picture of the past, it is an action that continued over a period of time. The preterite is a snapshot of the past, it happened and it's done.
Well, it works in my mind. I hope it will help.

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jalf12 says on Dec 2, 2005, 14:28:

Reply to El Padrino
You make a good point. Many native speakers I know do not use the subjunctive or even some of the past tenses. I think part of this is due to the many indigenous languages still in use (or traces of it) by Central and South Americans. For example, I speak better Spanish than the Guatamalans I work with and I'm a gringo. But they also speak the Mayan dialect "Mam".
I will say that in Bogota they use the subjunctive case on a daily basis. I did not learn it well until I went there. I don't know if it is true but the people from Bogota say they speak the best Spanish in the world (distinguished from what Spainards call "Castellano" of course).

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Dec 2, 2005, 14:44:

test Translate into Spanish: When I was coming home today I saw a deer crossing the road. I almost bumped into it. Luckily I missed. If I hadn't missed, I wouldn't be sitting here telling you this story.

Cheers,
Desi

Embrace your uniqueness. Time is much too short to be living someone
else's life.

-Kobi Yamada

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Dec 2, 2005, 15:21:

hey, what are you waiting for? Nobody dares to try?

Cheers,
Desi

Embrace your uniqueness. Time is much too short to be living someone
else's life.

-Kobi Yamada

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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platano says on Dec 2, 2005, 16:39:

Remember Spanish is not my native language, but here goes... When I was coming home today I saw a deer crossing the road. I almost bumped into it. Luckily I missed. If I hadn't missed, I wouldn't be sitting here telling you this story.

Hoy llegando a casa ví un venado cruzando la calle. Casi lo estrello. Afortunadamente no pasó nada. De lo contrario, no estaría sentado acá contándote la historia.

plátano

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critter says on Dec 2, 2005, 19:15:

As a former High school Spanish teacher... I would like to say that all posters here know what they are talking about. The imperfect and preterite tenses are commonly-used past tenses to express actions that occur in the past. They go together like peanut-butter and jelly, ketchup and mustard, and salt and pepper. You will seldom see one tense without the other, unless it comes it in the form of a short and sweet message. In order to fully understand the functionality of each tense, you must first learn the definition and construction of the tense. The Imperfect tense (this tense is very straight-forward and easy to construct; it has very few irregular conjugations)- describes an on-going action in the past for an undetermined amount of time...there is no indication whatsoever(if a time-frame is referenced, then the preterite tense must be used) as to when the action started or when it ended, just that it is no longer happening (thus, the past tense); it is primarily used to describe something you "were doing" or "used to do" in the past and is often interrupted by a one-time action in the past...which brings us to the Preterite tense. The Preterite tense, probably the most commonly-used tense (and likely the most difficult to master in Spanish, due to all irregular verb changes in the stem and endings,)is used to describe a one-time action in the past (it's done and over with...se acabo',termino'). The starting and ending point of the action is clearly defined or can easily be inferred (even if the action occurred over an extended period of time). I hope that helped. Let me know, if you are interested in learning how to catergorize and memorize all the irregular stems in the preterite tense??

"Spending eternity in a bad place is a long time!"

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ElPadrino1 says on Dec 2, 2005, 19:37:

Desi-my take at it though I am a student at the basic level(very "Cuando yo estaba viniendo a casa hoy, yo vi un venado cruzando el
camino.
Yo casi choque con este; afortunadamente yo perdi. Si yo no hubiera
perdido,
Yo no hubiera estado sentado aqui diciendote a ti esta historia!

I added what I thought were a couple grammatical correctons to the english statement; a period here, semicolon there.

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critter says on Dec 2, 2005, 19:48:

As far as who speaks the "best" Spanish.... It's all very subjective. No matter where you go, you will always be surrounded by the "best" Spanish speakers on the planet, according to them. The fact is, nobody speaks any language perfectly. That's like saying Da Vinci was the "best" artist ever. Yes, spoken languages are like paintings; they are an ever-changing art-form, and not an exacting science. Sure, there are basic rules to all languages, but it's the beauty of the idiomatic expressions and slang (i.e. doble sentidos) used in-context at that right moment in time of a conversation(eliciting fits of laughter), which brings superlatives to my mind. That is why ELMODEFOQUE is so hilarious...he has impeccable timing...and is the KING of doble sentidos (I mean, look at his username...and no, De Foque is not his apellido); he's a "conversational genius", as far as I'm concerned.

"Spending eternity in a bad place is a long time!"

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ElPadrino1 says on Dec 2, 2005, 20:02:

Critter Agreed Elmo has very good timing! You can have a complicated SLR camera with all the settings but sometimes due to the complexities, you lose the picture at hand. Sometimes a Cheap Autofocus camera is better as it captures the Picture immediately and this is timing, like Elmo's telling of a story. Better, IMHO, to capture the Moment at hand with its imperfections then fool around waiting for perfection and miss the shot completely. And Elmo's stories are simply the best.

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Dec 3, 2005, 03:22:

Could I have the translation from a native speaker now?

(Both platano and padrino did a good job. Platano got an A and padrino a B+)

Cheers,
Desi

Embrace your uniqueness. Time is much too short to be living someone
else's life.

-Kobi Yamada

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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COLDK says on Dec 3, 2005, 04:19:

Desi: Translate into Spanish: When I was coming home today I saw a deer crossing the road. I almost bumped into it. Luckily I missed. If I hadn't missed, I wouldn't be sitting here telling you this story.

I am not so good for translations, but here my version:

Cuando venía a casa hoy ví un ciervo cruzando la calle. Casi me estrello contra él. Afortunadamente fallé. Si no hubiese (hubiera) fallado, no estaría aqui sentado(a) contándote (le) esta historia.

I am never sure when to use "hubiese" "hubiera" for me is the same meaning. maybe someone else can clarify about this?

contándote = informal (a ti)
contándole = formal (a usted).


Another question for native speakers: should we say : "vi un ciervo..." or "vi a un ciervo..." ?? Well I am not so good with my native spanih...

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Dec 3, 2005, 04:37:

thanks, coldk You got an A+ (just kidding). This is exactly my point. Not even a native speaker can always be absolutely sure about the conjugations and tenses and cases and whatever you have. I have exactly the same problem as COLDK. I don't know when to say "hubiera" and when "hubiese". Most people say "hubiera" instead of "hubiese" all the time. We all have our weaknesses.

Cheers,
Desi


Embrace your uniqueness. Time is much too short to be living someone
else's life.

-Kobi Yamada

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Dec 3, 2005, 05:30:

mi versión "Cuando venía a casa ayer ví un venado (ciervo) cruzando la carretera. Casi me estrello contra él. Afortunadamente fallé. Si no hubiese fallado no estaría aqui contándote la historia."

I have a problem with the sentence "Afortunadamente fallé", because it sounds like I was intentionally trying to kill the poor little deer, but lucky for me I failed (in spite of trying my best, stupid me).
Thanks everybody who gave me a hand with this little experiment in translation.

Cheers,
Desi

Embrace your uniqueness. Time is much too short to be living someone
else's life.

-Kobi Yamada

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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ElPadrino1 says on Dec 3, 2005, 05:31:

Desi, on your Original challenge you may confuse someone who attempts to translate this and here is why:

"When I was coming home today I saw a deer crossing the road. I almost bumped into it. Luckily I missed. If I hadn't missed, I wouldn't be sitting here telling you this story"

".Luckily I missed." This in English is NOT a Complete sentence and really cannot be terminated in the way you did.It is lacking an Object--I missed... what. That you missed a deer cannot be inferred from the way its written.Should be a comma after today. You then write "If I hadn't missed(again what?) I wouldn't be sitting.... Not to critique your English but to translate correctly from one langauge to another, what one requests to be translated has to be accurate to begin with at the onset.

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Dec 3, 2005, 06:38:

By no means, padrino, I'm trying to implicate that my English is perfect. I make a lot of mistakes, all the time. I'm not a native speaker of neither English nor Spanish. The longer I stay here in Sweden the worse both my English and Spanish are getting (I'm gaining on Swedish, though).

I'm only challenging the people who claim that the verb tenses and conjugation are easy in any foreign language. Some people are just a bit more talented, language-wise, than others. Some others just claim that as long as the communication is established and flows without hindrance from the sender to the receiver and back everything else is unimportant.

Making accurate translations is tricky stuff: keeping it close enough to the original meaning and writing style and not sounding clumsy or artificial at the same time is a hard and delicate job.

Cheers,
Desi

Embrace your uniqueness. Time is much too short to be living someone
else's life.

-Kobi Yamada

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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aaronfromus says on Dec 3, 2005, 06:44:

Desi, a test, how fun..... With what I've learned so far from the people in this thread, I'll give it a try.

"When I was coming home today I saw a deer crossing the road. I almost bumped into it. Luckily I missed. If I hadn't missed, I wouldn't be sitting here telling you this story."

Cuando yo estaba volviendo a mi hogar hoy, yo vi a un ciervo estuvo cruzando el calle. Casi yo golpete a el, pero yo tuve algo suerte, asi yo evite a el. Si yo no evite, entonces yo no hubiera sentado aca ni contado a ti esta historia.

Funny that my translation is longer than the original Hahahaha. But, it's as good as my dictionary and I can do at this point. I did notice ElPadrino's point above, I needed to adjust the "Luckily I missed" part to follow my train of thought, but no harm done I think.

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aaronfromus says on Dec 3, 2005, 06:57:

Complicated and simple explainations... Thanks for the detailed explaination ElPadrino and Critter. I like to understand how something is supposed to be done as a whole before I attempt to do it myself. I like having the big picture first when I'm learning something.

But also thanks Hollywood and Jalf12, because even when I can understand something as a whole, it is still difficult for me to apply it all at once. I need bite size pieces to work with, or something simplified that I can actually use without becoming too overwhelmed.

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Monpirri says on Dec 3, 2005, 07:06:

The English language is a very complicated matter as well Here is an e-mail I have received.

The English Language. Have you ever wondered why foreigners have trouble with the English Language?. Let's face it. English is a crazy language. There is no egg in the eggplant No ham in the hamburger. And neither pine nor apple in the pineapple. English muffins were not invented in England. French fries were not invented in France. We sometimes take English for granted But if we examine its paradoxes we find that Quicksand takes you down slowly, Boxing rings are square. And a guinea pig is neither from Guinea nor is it a pig. If writers write, how come fingers don't fing. If the plural of tooth is teeth. Shouldn't the plural of phone booth be phone beeth, If the teacher taught, Why didn't the preacher praught. If a vegetarian eats vegetables. What the does a humanitarian eat? Why do people recite at a play, Yet play at a recital? Park on driveways and Drive on parkways. You have to marvel at the unique lunacy. Of a language where a house can burn up as it burns down. And in which you fill in a form by filling it out. And a bell is only heard once it goes! English was invented by people, not computers, and it reflects the creativity of the human race (Which of course isn't a race at all) That is why when the stars are out they are visible, but when the lights are out they are invisible, and why it is that when I wind up my watch it starts, but when I wind up this observation, it ends.

The life spam of a taste bud is ten days

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COLDK says on Dec 3, 2005, 07:11:

Desi you are right about the sentence "afortunadamente fallé". Thats the problem when we try to transate literaly, sometimes it is necesary to use other words in order to get better sence in the laguange we want to translate to, like Platano did saying "Afortunadamente no pasó nada".

Anyway you gave me an A+ and that is more than what I got in school. Dont even ask me a tense name for hubiera or hubiese or any other. Verb tenses in spanish were a nightmare and lets not talk about sentence construction.
Ahh..and dont ask me to translate danish-spanish-danish, what a disaster, not only my english is decreasing , but also my spanish, so... what I am supposed to speak in the future? no idea...jiji

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aaronfromus says on Dec 3, 2005, 07:29:

Hitting a plateau when learning Spanish? Something occurred to me after reading Desi's comment above.

I have just noticed that I must have hit a plateau somewhere along the way while I was learning Spanish. I mean, I can remember when my conscious focus was on learning new vocab, some conjugation and stuff like that. But, somewhere along the way, I don't know when, I stopped really learning Spanish, except for the occassional new vocab word. It's been a while since my conscious effort has been toward learning Spanish and, personally, I don't like the stagnation. I guess that's the reason why I posted this thread.

I also have noticed, that I can maintain some flow of communication in Spanish. Although, that flow is more like a sprinkler than a faucet. It seems to me, that necessity only requires a limited set of vocabulary, and just enough conjugation so that native speakers can figure out what you're saying. But, at the same time, while my pool of Spanish is limited, because I focus on what I already know, I'm pretty proficient in my limited pool of Spanish Hahahahah if that makes any sense.

I've noticed the same thing in native spanish speakers that move here to the states. Yes, they can speak English, but some of them are proficient and others are realllyyyy not proficient. The curious thing for me, was that I've seen immigrants with good English who've only been here for a couple years. Others, I've seen with poor English who've been here for 10 years or more. Yes, there are factors like prior schooling and natural proficiency, but, I think a lot of it can be explained by a learning plateau. Once they can function with a limited pool of English, there is no practical need to learn more, other than for personal satisfaction.

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aaronfromus says on Dec 3, 2005, 07:31:

Yes Critter, I'm interested Thanks
Aaron

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utopiacowboy says on Dec 3, 2005, 07:58:

I guess we all have our issues. The imperfect and the preterite is not one of them for me. The subjunctive and the reflexive verbs are my problem areas. As an example. What is the difference between plain old olvidar and olvidarse? Do I have to say me olvido? I can't just say olvido?

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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ElPadrino1 says on Dec 3, 2005, 09:33:

Monpirril, My Thoughts on the English Langauge also A Person clearly sees after he/she starts to study a 2nd langauge just how confusing and Nonsensical English is in reality. Many times words are NOT spelled as they are pronounced(are,our, phone),they are double lettered (geek,street), words pronounced the same but having a double meaning(red color, read a book). Learning English correctly(or a semblance of it) is a daunting task that would drive Einstein crazy! In this respect, Spanish is straight forward, words are pronounced as they are spelled and in their entirity. One has to question how it became the langauge of Business worldwide with all its shorcomings.

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Dec 3, 2005, 10:15:

UC the usage of reflexive verbs is a royal pain. Colombians tend to overuse them (it's not the same to say "vine" y "me vine") and to know exactly how they are supposed to be used you'd have to study grammar, which something I've never done. I know that, for example, to use the reflexive pronoun with a verb in some cases indicates the finality of the action, in addition to the most obvious usage when the object of the action falls directly on the subject.

Anybody care to help me out to explain this?

Cheers,
Desi

Embrace your uniqueness. Time is much too short to be living someone
else's life.

-Kobi Yamada

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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Monpirri says on Dec 3, 2005, 17:46:

ElPadrino1 Yes, English is the language of “One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest”
Yes, many times the English words are not spelled as they are pronounced.
Yes, words are pronounced the same but they have a different meaning
And Yes, in Spanish, the words are pronounced as they are spelled.
One positive side of the English language, it does not stand still like pond water.

The life spam of a taste bud is ten days

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Mr. Hollywood says on Dec 3, 2005, 20:47:

My translation "When I was coming home today I saw a deer crossing the road. I almost bumped into it. Luckily I missed. If I hadn't missed, I wouldn't be sitting here telling you this story."

I was comin' home today from workin' at the gas station and a big fuckin' deer leapt across the road in front of me. I gunned my pickup truck and tried to git' him, but damnit, I missed. If I hadn't missed, we'd be eatin' venison stew right now.

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Dec 4, 2005, 06:38:

LOL Thanks, Hollywood for the translation into English. I guess I haven't spent enough time in the trailer park out there in the Redneck Country.

Cheers,
Desi

Embrace your uniqueness. Time is much too short to be living someone
else's life.

-Kobi Yamada

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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utopiacowboy says on Dec 4, 2005, 07:18:

Yeah, Mr. H, then he would have asked his wife to cook it, "Sis, can ya cook up this roadkill I brung home?".

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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rocinante says on Dec 4, 2005, 08:18:

English Semantics not Syntax I agree with UC re: the Imperfect tense and I don't mean to pick on ElPadrino. I'm hoping this post helps at least one person.

The key to learning Spanish is to forget one to one translations. The Imperfect, Subjunctive and everything else In Spanish "semantically" exists in English. HOWEVER the syntax and structure differs (hence two different languages). Are Spanish speaker speaking about different things than we are? We all say the same stuff! Syntax refers to grammatical structure whereas semantics is the actual meaning of the words or symbols of vocabulary arranged within that structure. In short everything that can be expressed in Spanish can be expressed in English and vice versa - just with a different Syntax.

The problem is that many people approach a new language from a syntax structure as it relates to their base language to the new language (“one to one” or “syntax to syntax”). Usually the student does not fully understand the syntax of their base language since it was acquired at a mighty young age which adds another layer but I digress.

The key is to forget English Syntax and rules and focus on English Semantics. Although an unlikely scenario please humor the following example: When a student wants to express "I doubt Bob will go to the store", the student should know that in Spanish the subjunctive should be used to express this meaning. The student should focus on the semantics(meaning) of the English sentence and not the syntax(words). Then the student should tie or relate the English meaning to Spanish syntax - the correct subject, tense, mood etc… (the subjunctive should be used in the above example)

The key is not the syntax/tense of the subjunctive but knowing when to use it. Also for reinforcement the student should translate backwards. But I digress again.

If the student tries to "one to one" the English syntax to the Spanish syntax they will always struggle and nonexistent or alien syntax(from the base language) that exists or doesn't exist in the new language - it will be more difficult for the student to grasp.

Everyone makes valid points however ElPadrino1 writes,

"you may confuse someone who attempts to translate this and here is why:

"When I was coming home today I saw a deer crossing the road. I almost bumped into it. Luckily I missed. If I hadn't missed, I wouldn't be sitting here telling you this story"

"Luckily I missed." This in English is NOT a Complete sentence and really cannot be terminated in the way you did.It is lacking an Object--I missed... what. That you missed a deer cannot be inferred from the way its written.Should be a comma after today. You then write "If I hadn't missed(again what?) I wouldn't be sitting.... Not to critique your English but to translate correctly from one langauge to another, what one requests to be translated has to be accurate to begin with at the onset. "

ElPadrino - Desi's sentence is perfect in that she has written just as a native English speaker would speak. Everyone with even a basic understanding of English completely understands her sentence. There is no "elephant in the pajamas" double meaning or even a hint of ambiguity anywhere.

However, when translating "one to one" (Syntax to Syntax) the translator comes across a problem, as you have written "I missed... what. That you missed a deer cannot be inferred from the way its written". I disagree and feel that it's obvious that she missed the deer - the Direct Object from Sentence 1, carried over to Sentence 2 ("I almost bumped into it"), is still be referenced in the sentence you noted.

The way to analyize Desi's sentence is to understand the semantics, forget the Syntax and switch to Spanish thinking. How would I express the ideas semantically in Spanish?

I cannot stress how important this is and how much simpler learning a foreign language will be if this approach is followed. No disrespect intended but ElPadrino your approach is exactly what not to do in order to convert an expression of an idea from one language to another.

Desi your English example is perfect. And I apologize to the poster who summed up what I wrote here in an earlier post (sic).

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Not that the US president actually runs the US." Feb 5, 2008

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jalf12 says on Dec 4, 2005, 09:02:

Se me olvidó
Cowboy,

The way I understand the use of the reflexive in your example is the speaker is transfering the blame of forgetting the object from him/herself to the object. To say I forgot would be simply "Olvide" (accent on the "e", I couldn't find the alt key for it), "Se me olvidó" is like saying the object itself forgot me (literally) but yes Colombians do tend to overuse the reflexive. Sometimes I tease my wife by saying things like "Se te me lo olvidó".:)

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Miguel says on Dec 4, 2005, 09:05:

Many good points here... Hollywood, I suggest that it be " a big ass fuckin' dear"; and UC, I think you have got to "se olvido"; also UC, like you, I don't have a problem in using the preterite or the imperfect; the biggest challenge for me has been breaking the habit of structuring my spoken Spanish in the English mode.
My Spanish tutor demands that I slow down while speaking, and it definitely has improved my enunuciation.

A while back, I suggested to the moderators that we start a language forum on PBH to help all of us with both Spanish as well as English. I, for one, would like to see it included in PBH.

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ElPadrino1 says on Dec 4, 2005, 09:19:

Subject always needed, not semantics or a word play. In any school instructing in basic english worldwide your Test would be "redlined-incorrect" if you answered an essay type test with incomplete sentences lacking a Subject or verb. Please provide me a link to the contrary to substantiate your claim.I will cite "The AmericanHeritage Dictionary of the English Usage(my old books are buried in the archives)below:

Sentence;a grammatical Unit comprising a word or group of words seperate from any other grammatical construction consisting of at Least One Subject with its predicate containing a finite verb or verb phrase; a sentence consists of a verb and includes objects, modifiers or compliments of the Verb. Example; The House is White., The man hit the dog. I'll go with this and in 16 years of English Instruction I have never seen a variance in this principle.

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jalf12 says on Dec 4, 2005, 09:24:

More Common Reflexives
Se me perdió
Me lo Creí
Se me fue

Any other good ones?

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kat1 (Moderator) says on Dec 4, 2005, 09:31:

Cuando venía a casa hoy ví un ciervo cruzando la calle. Casi me estrello contra él. Afortunadamente fallé. Si no hubiese (hubiera) fallado, no estaría aqui sentado(a) contándote (le) esta historia. Although for me Coldk is the best translation, apart from Calle it should really have been Carretera, Afortunadamente falle, you can change this to afortunadament lo esquive. si no lo hubiese esquivado no estaria aqui sentado contando la historia.

esquivar: to avoid

esquivar verbo transitivo
1 (un obstáculo, golpe) to dodge: menos mal que pudo esquivar el árbol que había caído en la carretera, luckily he was able to dodge the tree that had fallen across the road

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platano says on Dec 4, 2005, 09:42:

My understanding is... Translation is not about literally finding the words in another language.
It is about conveying the meaning expressed by the words.

For example, translating the above into street Paisa would go like this:

Eeeeee, Ave Maria, pues, hombre, es que esta vaina de la traducción no tiene nada que ver con una equivalencia literal, palabra a palabra, de una lengua a otra.
Pues, la idea es transmitir el significado que esas putas palabras están cargando adentro.

DISCLAIMER: I never took a Spanish class in high school or university. I learned Spanish on the Streets of Metrallo and in the Taverns of Cali. As for the past and past perfect verbs, etc. pues, no reconocería un verbo reflexivo si me estaba atracando con burundanga.

plátano

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ElPadrino1 says on Dec 4, 2005, 10:00:

true platano But when one goes to a Translator for translation, he/she should have a Good Document from the Onset. You have a very extensive and correct command of english as I have read your post many times and tyhey always are complete. You know the omission of one Exclamation point or word could alter the impact/meaning of the whole paragraph. Is this not true? A good example of how NOT to speak English would be how Mr GW Bush, the current North American President conveys his thoughts(dangling unfinished sentences without meaning,subjects ect). It would be interesting to take one of his written documents for translation and see the finished product. JAJA

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platano says on Dec 4, 2005, 10:07:

De acuerdo, ElPadrino1, Siempre es mejor empezar con un documento correcto. (No quiero tocar el tema de Bush o el señor Tinto me borra de la lista.)

But in the case of Desi's sentence, "Luckily I missed" ... it is a complete sentence. Not only does it have a subject and a verb, it also has an implied or understood direct object: "it" or "the deer".

I am in agreement with rocinante. That is the way English speakers speak.

plátano

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Dec 4, 2005, 10:22:

right I believe both rocinante and platano have the right approach to translations. Rocinante makes a lot of sense with that semantics/syntax switch: first make it right in the meaning and intention of the writer/speaker and then make it grammatically correct.

I also noticed the overuse of the subject pronoun in some translations. In Spanish it's perfectly normal to start the sentence directly with the conjugated verb (venía vs. yo venía). To an English-speaking person this is an anomaly and very confusing.

I admit that my original paragraph was not perfect English, however, I thought that it was obvious I meant the deer even in the subsequent sentences. I'm fairly sure translators must be able to deal with even worse situations in their work.

BTW, padrino, I know my punctuation sucks.

Cheers,
Desi


Embrace your uniqueness. Time is much too short to be living someone
else's life.

-Kobi Yamada

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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utopiacowboy says on Dec 4, 2005, 11:02:

Some excellent posts above from Rocinante and Jalf12. One time my stepson wanted to borrow a DVD from my son and after he asked him my son said no. My stepson asked me why my son wouldn't lend him the DVD. I then asked my son what had happened and my son said, "Dad, he asked me if I wanted to borrow the DVD. I already have it so I said no." I then had to explain to my stepson that in English we have two words "lend" and "borrow" while Spanish only has "prestar". He really wanted my son to lend him the DVD. Of course now my stepchildren are so fluent in English they would never make this mistake.

I agree with you, Miquel, I would like to see a separate area as well.

You may be right, El Padrino, but in everyday speech, English speakers often leave out something which is understood from the context. Someone asks, "Are you going to play?" and the response is "I will." I will what? Play of course. This tendency in English causes my wife a lot of problems.

You are right, Desi, about the use of the pronoun. It's hard for me to shake using it.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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ElPadrino1 says on Dec 4, 2005, 11:19:

Platano, tell me your source and I(and my english teachers) may learn something new!

""Luckily I missed" ... it is a complete sentence. Not only does it have a subject and a verb, it also has an implied or understood direct object: "it" or "the deer"."
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Show me the rule of grammar and I will concur with you.I guess we went to different schools, those nasty old Nuns and Jesuits...jaja. I hope no one takes any offense to this discussion as by asking questions and listening to others is a way of learning and I hope we can agree on that.:)

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rocinante says on Dec 4, 2005, 11:42:

Once the speaker comprehends the text to be conveyed (or the speaker comprehends the idea in his/her head of what is to be conveyed) DROP ALL ENGLISH grammar, syntax etc… Pause with the IDEA of what is to be conveyed in an abstract format – not in specific English words. At that point apply what you know about Spanish. Think about the Spanish words and sample sentences you have learned that will convey the ideas in your head. Removing the english words and sitting with the IDEA and then going with IDEA to Spanish is the key to start thinking in Spanish - because in reality we don't think in any language until it comes time to talk. What so many adult students try to do is after coming up with a though they translate it to english and then translate that english to spanish. It is better for the student to work backwards and hear/see and say Spanish sentences and structures all day long and then realize what the IDEA is in your mind. In your head will be a legend or key of Spanish words/sentences/ideas to their English IDEAS. Over time, in your head you know (from practice and repetition) not only that “dog = Perro" but how to express doubt, how to express something that happened Friday of last week, how to express that you used to dance a lot when you were younger or that you lost something. PS - I'm not able to proof read this and ensure that it makes sense. I'm in a rush - sorry.

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Not that the US president actually runs the US." Feb 5, 2008

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platano says on Dec 4, 2005, 12:12:

ElPadrino1, the Jesuits are my source! .

The Jesuits cite the same rule book I use: Strunk and White, THE ELEMENTS OF STYLE.

EXCERPTED FROM RULE 6 OF THE ELEMENTS OF STYLE:

"It is permissable to make an emphatic word or expression serve the purpose of a sentence and to punctuate it accordingly: "Again and again he called out. No reply."

The writer must, however, be certain that the emphasis is warranted, lest a clipped sentence seem merely a blunder in syntax or in punctuation. Generally speaking, the place for broken sentences is in dialogue, when a character happens to speak in a clipped or fragmentary way."

"Luckily I missed." is such an emphatic expression. In Desi's sentence, which is engaging in narration of an event, the omission of the direct object of a transitive verb is both warranted and permissable according to the Jesuits and the rule book the Association of Editors of Jesuit Publications cite on their page: THE ELEMENTS OF STYLE.

SOURCE CITATION: Strunk, William. The Elements of Style. 4th edition. New York: Longman, 2000. (Rule 6 on page 7)

The ELEMENTS OF STYLE is a Jesuit-approved publication referenced on their web page:
Association of Editors of Jesuit Publications http://www.aejp.net/styles/marquette.htm

plátano

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COLDK says on Dec 4, 2005, 12:33:

Miguel "A while back, I suggested to the moderators that we start a language forum on PBH to help all of us with both Spanish as well as English. I, for one, would like to see it included in PBH."

Good idea.

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utopiacowboy says on Dec 4, 2005, 12:55:

You are so right, Rocinante. I think this is easier to do if you learn Spanish in a natural setting, i.e. speaking with native Spanish-speakers rather than in a classroom. My Spanish fluency is limited but I never translate from English to Spanish or back again.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Monpirri says on Dec 4, 2005, 13:13:

Platano I own a copy of The Elements of Style by William Strunk Jr. and E.B. White. MacMillan Publishing Co. Inc. 866 Third Avenue, New York, N.Y. 10022

From THE ELEMENTS OF STYLE, Third Edition - RULE 6, Page 7
6. Do not not break sentences in two.

In other words, do not use periods for commas.

I met them on a Cunard liner many years ago. Coming home from Liverpool to New York.

He was an interesting talker. A man who had traveled all over the world and lived in half a dozen countries.

In both of these examples, the first period should be replaced by a comma and the following word begun with a small letter.

It is permissable to make an emphatic word or expression serve the purpose of a sentence and to punctuate it accordingly: Again and again he called out. No reply.

The writer must, however, be certain that the emphasis is warranted, lest a clipped sentence seem merely a blunder in syntax or in punctuation. Generally speaking, the place for broken sentences is in dialogue, when a character happens to speak in a clipped or fragmentary way.

Does your copy actually say, Association of Editors of Jesuit Publications?

The life spam of a taste bud is ten days

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platano says on Dec 4, 2005, 13:22:

The Jesuits reference Elements of Style on their web page... I am not saying Elements of Style is published by the Jesuits. (I provided my complete source citation to the 4th edition I have in my hand). My quote from Rule 6 comes from the 4th edition.

I am saying the Jesuits make reference to Elements of Style on their web page...
The ELEMENTS OF STYLE is Jesuit-approved!

Association of Editors of Jesuit Publications http://www.aejp.net/styles/marquette.htm

plátano

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platano says on Dec 4, 2005, 15:21:

If you want to read the whole book online, it is available at... .
http://www.bartleby.com/141/

Whether you are looking at the 3rd or 4th edition, Rule 6 justifies Desi's sentence: "Luckily I missed."

plátano

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rocinante says on Dec 4, 2005, 16:40:

thinking in Spanish is the goal UC writes: I think this is easier to do if you learn Spanish in a natural setting, i.e. speaking with native Spanish-speakers rather than in a classroom. My Spanish fluency is limited but I never translate from English to Spanish or back again.

Not everyone has that luxury. But extreme practice ie: repetition goes along way.

Expressing ideas in a new language starting from the native language to target language will hinder the process of learning how to think in the target language. Everyone knows that once you start thinking in Spanish you're 90% home.

How do you start thinking in Spanish? By not thinking in English. Work backwards from what you have already learned in Spanish. Another simple example is the Spanish "siempre se me pierden los numeros de telefono" I always lose telephone numbers - or - Siempre se me pierde el boligrafo = I always my pen.


Notice the verb agrees with the thing that was lost - this is because the thing that was lost is the SUBJECT of the sentence - SOMETHING we don't have in English.

The literal translation (shudder) is that the pen got lost to me. Pen being the subject.

If you use the "let me start with the English sentence and then translate that sentence to Spanish" mindset you will always struggle with the Spanish.

If you start with "Let me take the IDEA in my head (without the English sentence) of what I'm trying to say, pair it with a Spanish example I already know and plug in the changes" You are working backwards from Spanish in the formation of the words. As hard as it sounds try not to form the words in English in your head. Take the idea and do a look up for the example in your head where something similar has been stored in Spanish.

Back to the example: When the Spanish construct for losing something is ingrained in your head without ever thinking about how the words relate "one to one" back to English, when it comes time to say 'we always lose telephone numbers' you grasp the idea of what you want to say but lose the thought of the EXACT English words and sentence structure and then work backwards from Spanish plugging in the correct tense and whatnot: "Siempre se nos pierdan los numeros de telefono"

You always lose telephone numbers : “Siempre se te pierdan los numeros de telefono.”

FYI: The construct is :
se + IO pronoun (the 'victim who actually lost something) + 3rd person Singular/Plural of Perder + 'what was lost'

If you read and study a hundred sentences using this construct - the construct for losing something is in your head - all you need to do is plug in your IDEA.

I know there are many other ways to convey losing something but to start speaking you only need one in your arsenal.

Another example: Dreaming about something/Someone. In Spanish, literal to English, you dream with someone. Never do you say Sonar a rather Sonar con (with). But is still relates to the English IDEA of “dreaming about _______”.

Have this construct in your head and then you can tell your girlfriend’s child (or hell even her if you want to be sweet) "may you dream about little angels" - subjunctivo because she may dream of something else- "Que suenes con los angelitos"

May you dream about_______! "Que suenes con _______" (plug it in amigos!)

I apologize for both the long post and also the fact that my keyboard cannot make the squiggly thingy-ma-bob over the n ;)

PS – also If you have not read the entire posts in this thread or at least my previous posts this post will be difficult to fully understand.

I hope this helps at least one person.

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Not that the US president actually runs the US." Feb 5, 2008

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rocinante says on Dec 4, 2005, 17:05:

Spanish Language forum I vote yes!

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Not that the US president actually runs the US." Feb 5, 2008

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aaronfromus says on Dec 4, 2005, 17:18:

Spanish Language Forum I'm with rocinante, I vote yes.

This forum has almost everything concerning Colombia. There is a place for friendly talk, for visas, for talk on the war, for buying and selling stuff, there is even a spanish only section.

I've seen Utopia talk before about how he thinks the entire site should be done in spanish. Not a bad idea, but I'm not too sure where that would leave me, since it will likely be a long time before I can keep up in a totally spanish forum. But I'd like to be able to keep up, and I'll bet other's would too. Also, having a Spanish/English Language forum would show that this site isn't as segregated as it may appear, with the Spanish speakers talking together and the English speakers talking together.

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Miguel says on Dec 4, 2005, 18:38:

Mis amigos Siento que necesitamos un foro que tiene que ver de idiomas...Me gustaría mejorar mi español, y puedo ayudar álguien que quiere aprender, escribir y hablar el inglés como un natural.

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rocinante says on Mar 8, 2008, 07:20:

Hey - now that Desi's posts are restored I can read bout the Deer that alomst got served up by Hollywood's wife/sister.

PS We got a spanish language forum!

http://poorbuthappy.com/learn_spanish/

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Not that the US president actually runs the US." Feb 5, 2008

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huskie says on Mar 8, 2008, 07:38:

Cuando venía a casa hoy, vi a un venado cruzando en mi camino; casi lo atropello, pero afortunadamente falle, de lo contrario no estaria aqui sentada contando la historia.
Cheers

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds-"

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rocinante says on Mar 8, 2008, 07:41:

por curiosidad.... porque no escribiste "contandoLES la historia"

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Not that the US president actually runs the US." Feb 5, 2008

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huskie says on Mar 8, 2008, 08:41:

you can use it either way, telling the story or telling you the story. Make sense?
se puede usar de las dos maneras, una es contando la historia refiriendose a una historia especificamente, en este caso a lo que paso, y las otra es contandoles la historia, refiriendose a una audiencia.
Saludos

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds-"

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